Today I’m really pleased to have Margot Kinberg on the blog. You may remember Margot from the days of the crime book club that I ran on Google Hangouts, way back when.
Margot Kinberg is a mystery novelist (she writes the Joel Williams series) and Associate Professor. She has also been blogging about crime fiction since 2009. She has written three Joel Williams novels and is currently working on the fourth. Margot blogs at Confessions of a Mystery Novelist.
You can find Margot’s First Draft Q&A Here.
Your first draft has been completed, what state is it generally in?
Since I go straight to keyboard when I write, my first draft is in a Word file. But it’s often one long story with only little indications of where I think chapters will be. Still, I try to have something cohesive. I find it much harder to revise if I don’t have a document to start with, so I put it all into one file. It’s been corrected for the most egregious errors, but it often still needs a lot of work.
What is the first thing do before you start to revise?
Oddly enough, the first thing I do is wait. Very often I revise better if there’s a break between my writing and my revision. That works out well for a lot of reasons. For one, it gives my beta readers (to whom I am eternally grateful!!) time to read and comment. It also gives me some space, so that I can return to the work with fresh eyes. How long do I wait? Depends on several factors, but usually several weeks.
How do you assess the damage that needs working on?
First, I try to pretend it’s someone else’s work, not mine, so I can be a tiny bit more objective. I start with the story thread. If it’s not cohesive, or it’s implausible or it needs tightening, I do it. I fact-check if necessary, and I look at the overall timeline of the story. I also look at whether the characters are behaving. To put it another way, I check it all for plausibility. Then I check it for pacing, characters and so on.
When I get my beta-readers’ feedback, I put their commented copies of the manuscript up against my own copy, and go through the story chapter by chapter, checking what they say. Very often they catch things I don’t.
Do you allow anyone to read that very first draft before revisions or can you assess it objectively yourself?
Interesting question!! I’m not too bad at assessing things such as dialogue, word choice and the like (although of course I make my share of mistakes!). I do rely on my beta readers, though, for objectivity about the story. I generally do one read-through before I send it out. Then I let my beta readers have at it. This way at least they’re not subjected to a pile of incoherent gibberish.
What do you initially focus on, when approaching the completed first draft of the manuscript?
I start with the major events of the story. Do they make sense? Are they plausible? Then I move to characters. Are they necessary? Are they interesting? Are they fleshed out? The rest is editing, which comes later.
Do you have any rituals, writing or real-world, when revising a manuscript?
Not really, to be honest. I do have a process I use, though. I do the revisions scene by scene, and then chapter by chapter. That way, I can (hopefully!) be sure that everything’s linked together in a cohesive way. I also find that taking that approach helps me catch things such as timeline errors, wrong names (I’ve done that more than once!) and so on.
In what format do you revise, paper or computer?
Always, always on computer. If you saw my handwriting, you’d understand why. As if that weren’t enough, I type faster than I write by hand, so it’s time-saving for me to go straight to the keyboard.
How messy is the revision process – can you go in and repair areas or does the whole manuscript get decimated?
I tend to go in and repair areas. What sometimes happens, though, is that I’ll fix one area, only to find that that change impacts another area that then needs work. But I’d rather do it that way than start all over (unless I have to). Doing revisions piece by piece helps me to keep the overall structure of the story in mind as I work. For me, it’s a bit like remodeling a home. Doing it room by room lets you focus more than does the chaos that’s caused with top-to-bottom remodeling all at once.
Is revision an overhaul of the story or is it minor editing?
That depends on the manuscript, really. My revisions for B-Very Flat and Past Tense weren’t complete overhauls (although I did make some changes that went beyond editing). But the manuscript I’m working on now is going to need more than that. I’m just digging in for that process now, and it looks as though I’m going to have to make some major changes. That’s part of writing, too.
What’s the biggest change you’ve made to a story during this process?
In one case, I changed the identity of the murderer (I write crime fiction). That led to a whole cascade of changes in the rest of the story. And in the manuscript that I’m editing now, I had to completely change the personality of one of the characters. She didn’t like the way I portrayed her, and gave me a real dressing-down about it. Characters must be obeyed (until you’re ready to kill them off, that is… 😉 )
When first drafting, many writers keep track of progress by counting words in a day. How do you make sure you’re progressing as you’re revising?
I don’t really count words. It tends to limit me. On my productive days, I sometimes stop too soon. On my less productive days, counting words makes me too conscious of the progress I’m not making. And that takes my focus away from the story. I do set scene and chapter goals, so that I can see how I’m doing, but not a word count.
Do you prefer to write the first draft or do you prefer the revision process?
I like writing first drafts better. They’re often a mess, but that’s where the real creativity comes in, at least for me. That said, though, I do like the way revising helps me sharpen my writing, and reminds me to be humble about it. There’s nothing like catching a glaring, embarrassing error, or getting a brilliant idea for making a scene better, to teach you that revision is vital.
What do you drink while you’re working?
Usually coffee – black, no sugar. That’s not to say a glass of wine never slips in here and there…
How long does this process take and what shape is the book now in?
Once I get my beta readers’ feedback (and that can take a couple of weeks or more, as you can imagine), the revision process can take anywhere from a few weeks to a month or so. That depends on my ‘day job’ obligations, as well as how much of an awful mess the first draft was. By the time the revisions are done, the manuscript is usually in much better shape. I then go back and look for editing problems (spelling, grammar, that sort of thing).
Thanks for digging into the revision process depths, Margot!
Thanks again for hosting me!!
You can find Margot on Facebook | Twitter | Goodreads
Past Tense
A long-buried set of remains…a decades-old mystery
Past and present meet on the quiet campus of Tilton University when construction workers unearth a set of unidentified bones.
For former police detective-turned-professor Joel Williams, it’s a typical Final Exams week – until a set of bones is discovered on a construction site…
When the remains are linked to a missing person case from 1974, Williams and the Tilton, Pennsylvania police go back to the past. And they uncover some truths that have been kept hidden for a long time.
How much do people really need to know?
It’s 1974, and twenty-year-old Bryan Roades is swept up in the excitement of the decade. He’s a reporter for the Tilton University newspaper, The Real Story, and is determined to have a career as an investigative journalist, just like his idols, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. He plans to start with an exposé article about life on the campus of Tilton University. But does everything need to be exposed? And what are the consequences for people whose lives could be turned upside down if their stories are printed? As it turns out, Bryan’s ambition carries a very high price. And someone is determined not to let the truth out.
Marina Sofia says
I like that approach of no word count, sounds very sensible. I’m trying for the time being to stick to a timed approach ‘ write for an hour a day’. It’s too little really, but it’s a start, and I find it’s far less tyrannical than wordcount.
Lovely to see Margot here! I don’t know when she has time to write, work at her day job and read all of our blogs and comment!
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks very much for the kind words, Marina Sofia 🙂 – I really like your idea of writing for a certain amount of time each day.. As you say, much less tyrannical than word count, and you can still have some flexibility about when, exactly you write.
D S Nelson says
Great to get an insight into Margot’s revision process. Interesting to hear that you let people read the first draft too Margot, that’s brave. Thanks both, great post!
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks, D.S. – I find I get so much valuable insight from my beta readers that it’s really worth it to take the risk. And I do have some fabulous beta readers, too, who are very supportive and helpful, and who care enough about me to be honest.
D S Nelson says
And that’s invaluable!
Margot Kinberg says
🙂
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks very much, Rebecca! It’s a real privilege to be here.
LESLEY FLETCHER says
I can’t for the life of me imagine ANY gibberish stemming even from your first draft. I will have to take your word for it Margot!
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks, Lesley – Trust me, it’s there….. I appreciate the kind words!
Alex J. Cavanaugh says
Pretending it’s someone else’s work – I can do that!
Margot Kinberg says
For what it’s worth, Alex, I’ve found it a good way to distance myself and do what has to be done.
Prashant C. Trikannad says
Thank you, Rebecca and Margot. I have huge respect for anyone who writes and publishes a book, for I know just how tedious the process of writing and (repeated) revision is. Margot offers keen insight into her writing process and some very useful tips too. I don’t there’s such a thing as being fully satisfied with one’s own writing.
Margot Kinberg says
Thank you, Prashant, for the kind words. I completely agree with you; most authors are never quite satisfied with their writing. The process of revising can be tedious, but it really does make for a better story. And most writers I know feel much better about the end result than they did about the first draft.
Sue Coletta says
I don’t count words either, Margot. Like you, I measure my progress by chapters and/or scenes. I loved learning your process. What a fun post!
Margot Kinberg says
Thank you, Sue. I’m glad you enjoyed the post. I think it makes sense to measure progress by chapters and scenes, rather than word count. At least, it works for me.
Traci Kenworth says
Me too.
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks, Traci 🙂
Bill Selnes says
Margot: You are as organized and disciplined in your revisions as I would expect from your blog and your comments.
I am curious if the editing process is different in your academic writing
When I am preparing written legal arguments I draft them on the computer and occasionally do a revision on the computer but I find it works better to make revisions on any later drafts by pen. I do have the advantage of being able to have one of my personal assistants enter the pen edits.
I do struggle at times to just accept an argument is ready for submission. I tend to feel another edit would make it just a bit better even though I know after 40 years that written arguments rarely are improved by more than 3-4 drafts.
I do ask an articling student or another lawyer in the firm to read the argument before submission. I want someone else to confirm it is clear and readable.
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks for the kind words, Bill, And thanks for sharing the way you go about revising when you’re preparing your legal arguments. I’ve often wondered what that process is like, and I can well imagine that you’d want to write a draft and then revise it. And I’m sure it helps both your students and the beginning lawyers in your firm to give their opinions on your arguments. Getting the chance to give input on someone else’s work, I think, allows one to learn the process of revision.
As for my academic writing, I revise that, too, of course. I do it section by section (as opposed to chapter by chapter or scene by scene). It’s a different sort of revision, but it’s revision. I agree with you that 3 or so drafts probably gives one the best one’s going to get. That’s about what I end up doing, too.
FictionFan says
Interesting stuff, Margot and Rebecca – thanks! I’ve never really understood how people can work to a word count – even just writing reviews, sometimes words flow quickly, other times they take their own sweet time about arriving…
Margot Kinberg says
That’s the thing about it, FictionFan. The words don’t always flow smoothly at all. I wish they did. So it’s nice when I can at least feel I’ve gotten something done when I’m writing, even if I don’t pour out the words. And, speaking of words, thanks for the kind ones – glad you enjoyed the post.
Rebecca Bradley says
I’m glad you enjoyed it, Fiction Fan x
Cleo @ Cleopatra Loves Books says
Wow changing the murderer in the revision process must have caused a huge ripple effect throughout the manuscript.
I do love this series about the different approach that writers take with this process and I see where extra eyes in the Beta reading stage is so useful.
Margot Kinberg says
I like this series very much, too, Cleo. It was such a privilege to be invited to be part of it. And I’ve been learning a lot about the way others go about writing and revising. It’s very helpful! As to changing the murderer? Yes, that did have a lot of ‘cascade’ effects. But I still think it was worth the effort.
Annalisa Crawford says
I’m in awe of anyone who can give their first draft to betas!
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks, Annalisa,
I have the best beta-readers anywhere! They’re very supportive and helpful, even with my weakest first drafts.
Christopher Davis says
Beta s are important and I’ll sometimes wait for years before revisiting a story….which I think helps after a long cooling period?
Margot Kinberg says
Oh, I think a waiting time helps, too, Christopher. It gives one a fresh perspective. And as for beta readers? I am very fortunate to have some fabulous folks who help me in that way. My work is better because of them.
K.B. Owen says
Lots of great stuff here, Margot! I know what you mean about characters giving you a dressing-down, LOL. They can be so pushy, am I right? *wink*
I’m conflicted about daily word count. Sometimes I use it (only at first draft stage), and other times it just feels like a distraction. But I know it’s incredibly helpful for many writers.
I have been there with changing the murderer after the first draft (or as I’m wrapping up the first draft). It just seems to come out of left field, but feels right. The mad scramble to fix everything else certainly makes life interesting!
Best of luck with your new WIP, Margot! And if you need another beta, just give a shout. 🙂
Margot Kinberg says
Thanks for the beta offer, Kathy! I just might take you up on it. And yes, characters can, indeed, be pushy. You know, you let a character think for herself and….she does! 😉 – As to word count, I know what you mean about feeling conflicted. That’s why I don’t use it that often. I just feel more productive when I think in terms of scenes and chapters.
I didn’t know you’d also had that experience of the murderer turning out to be a different character to the one you’d thought. See, there you go – characters thinking for themselves again… It does mean a lot of cascading changes, but in the end, I think the story’s better when the writer listens to those gut feelings.
Patricia Stoltey says
Thanks for the helpful information just in time, ladies. I’m past the “waiting” stage and am starting the “assess the damage” phase of revision. It’s not pretty!
Margot Kinberg says
I know the feeling, Pat! I wish you well as you move on. it’s quite a process, isn’t it??